Live from the wdia studios invest in wdia presents mind over matter youth mental health matters now moderator tracy matter sack Hello everyone and thanks for joining us for this very important conversation about youth and mental health in our region if you've had these kinds of struggles please know that you are not alo if you need someone to talk to or you'd like to explore treatment options dial too one one to speak with a caring person who can help in the past year alone nearly 20 percent of Pennsylvania children aged 12 to 17 have reported experiencing a major depressive episode that's higher than the national average about 11 percent of kids in the state have reported severe emotional distress with higher rates among females suicide is the second leading cause of death among Pennsylvania youth age tend to 24 these statistics underscore the urgent need for addressing youth mental health and increasing access to mental health care services in Pennsylvania in a few minutes we'll meet some young people health journeys with us and how they have found help and hope in the process But first a closer look at youth and mental health in the region how we got here and how to move forward and for that we turn to our expert panel tr druckman is a k through 12 professional school counselor with twenty one years of experience in public education She's a nationally certified counsellor qpr suicide gatekeeper trainer and an lg I trauma informed care instructor ms druckman is an advocate for students and has devoted much of her career to the middle grades Dr timothy leon eddie earned his p hd in school psychologist from lehigh university He's been active in his own private practice and has consulted with many schools and mental health agencies currently he is the general outpatient director at guy singer and Dr dana moloch of its serves as the mental wellness and trauma specialist with the office for safe schools for the Pennsylvania department of education with over 20 years of experience in school mental health community mental health pediatric neuropsychology school administration and schools psychology she supports schools as the trauma lead for the state department of education Thank you all so much for being with us for a very important conversation and to a direct line I want to begin with you because as a school counselor You have had a front row seat to what on with our young people and their mental health What have you been seeing a lot of what we see in the schools has been a disconnect between our students and finding loving acceptance within either there peer groups or their families I think with the onset of covered we have seen students really looking for a connection but struggling to find that for one reason or another so i'm really just seeing students who desire to have a connection but aren't really sure how to get that and i'm seeing families who aren't sure how to connect with their use over overtime and we'll be talking a lot about connection throughout the hour dr tim leon Do you work with young people at geisinger singer and i'm wondering what are are the most common mental health issues that you're seeing in the young patients that you work with their so many many kids students I always seen as column and just used to call them students with anxiety disorders lots of kids with adhd or other disruptive behaviors non-compliance defiance certainly as the beginning talked about lots of kids with suicidal thoughts or even attempts Those are the the bulk of what we see and just as a quick follow up more since culvert yes certainly much more especially the depression and anxiety anxiety Dr danimal lack of it You are a trauma specialist and so often when we think of trauma we think of war veterans but the fact is that anyone can experience trauma What does that tend to look like in children in other words how does it manifest in having you've seen more of that since coleman we have seen increases in trauma responses and children and then I am when i'm listening to both of them talk about increase as an anxiety depression behaviors lack of connection Those are often trauma responses so we see difficulty with that connecting kind of that internalizing behaviors with depression and anxiety i'm suicidal ideation or we see the opposite We see increases in behavior so aggression difficulties with being triggered by environmental stimuli so we're seeing all these outward behaviors that actually can be a trauma response and we will be talking about all of that throughout the hour Of course we have known for some time now that the pandemic took a huge toll on the mental health of young people but new data from the cdc reveals the teenage girls have been hit particularly hard nearly 30 percent of the thousands of girls surveyed said that they had seriously considered attempting suicide That is a 60 percent percent increase from the decade before In a moment we'll meet abby schaffer bloomsburg university student too could have become a statistic her struggles led her to become an advocate for suicide prevention suicide among teens ages 15 to 24 is the second leading cause of death It's something that we're recognizing is a at the and also in terms of suicide rates has increased 57 percent between 2007 and twenty eighteen People can feel uncomfortable asking the direct question why are you suicidal at this moment Do you need help at this moment I do feel safe but sometimes those are important questions we need to ask We've talk about communicating to the students that it's okay to tell us that it's okay to reach out for help other people will say well you can't ask about suicide because that will put the thought into their mind and research is proven that that's absolutely not the case so this covers up my scarred from that night It's the title to a song before you go by lewis capacity not many people know that song is about suicide awareness I grew up in harrisburg Pennsylvania I have two moms beth in one day and an older brother alex it started with everybody's body started changing and I was a overweight kid and so I developed quickly anorexia then that slowly led to becoming depressed and just falling out of love with myself and my body I always had this feeling that I wasn't enough I kind of kept it to myself and kept it kept all my feelings to myself I felt like I was a burden I talked about it I felt like I was weird about it I had a set of razor blades and I have now a scar on my wrist from where I chose to I was in the middle Doing and and I stopped and I thought about I went downstairs and I said I needed help my team definitely knows that I struggle I've had a lot of people in my team come up to me and say i've been struggling to ask me for advice and I offer What Help me I go to therapy I see a doctor for medications I see a psychiatrist This is the first summer and probably two three years where I haven't been in the hospital for suicidal ideation I am very proud of all the progress I've made a lot of hard work but i'm very proud of it I've come to realize how important it is to talk about it Not only for me but for other people we asked the entire student body in our middle school right here Do you have an adult that you feel safe going and talking to and we want them to be able to identify that core adult that safe adult somebody that they can go to if they have an issue Let's just be honest for some of our students trusted adult who is it If they can't identify one Go to your school counselor your school counselor will have resources for that In that mindset ah in that space sometimes it's really hard to get outside that darkness So if we have something we can turn to whether it's a list that we to quit us Ok there These people in my life that I know I can reach out to that care about me I can bring that with me in that time your hospital always open in available to you as well as the new national nine eight line Pennsylvania has the safe to say hotline you can do it online You can do it on a mobile app and that's just another way to let somebody know let an adult know that that somebody is reaching out for help and is looking for that connection we think gabby for sharing her story with us to let me begin with you How did we get here to the point where experts are now calling teen suicide an epidemic yeah so one of the things that I try to address oftentimes with adults particularly with our ah adolescent age group is the disconnect between those particular students and loving caring adult so I I One of the kind of platforms that I like to talk a lot about is we need to stop being so fearful of parenting educating and coaching through the teen years although it's difficult although it is challenging There is so much going on in the annual adolescent brain that connections that are happening in the adolescent brain it's happening so quickly we see behaviors and things that as adults We are fearful of and we don't know how to handle but at the same time what are adolescence need what ah ah preteens and our teens need is connection with loving trusting adult so we need to drop the narrative of the teen years being scary They truly can be an incredible time of self discovery and growth and I think when we change that narrative we can really help you through what is a very tumultuous time Speaking of being fearful and dana a direct this to you One of the points that one of the counselors in that made was that adults have a fear of being direct with young people and talking about their mental health and even using the word suicide because they're afraid that it might plant an idea in their head Can you address that fear that concern that a lot of adults have that Maybe want to dance around the issue or not ask a child directly if there concerned that the child is in crisis and why it's better to be direct there is a myth that if we ask someone if they're thinking about suicide We're going to cause them to be suicidal and it is definitely a meth One of the things that we know is that if you ask someone Are you thinking about hurting yourself and i'm thinking about about dying by suicide I'm not thinking about hurting myself i'm thinking about ending my pain So my answer is going to be no if I directly say to you Are you thinking about suicide and you don't answer and affirmative Absolutely yes You kind of sight Not really Or like maybe then you ask again survivors of suicide attempts have indicated that if they are asked two to three times they will say yes they will seek help they're looking for that connection and so we address that a lot in our threat assessment trainings that we do for schools because we want school people to know our educators no you're not going to cause harm by asking those questions if a student is not thinking about suicide they're going to say no i'm not thinking about it and if they are thinking about suicide you're saving their life to my found the statistics study that 70 percent of people who commit suicide either tell someone about their plan or give some sort of warning sign Have you found that to be true because so often when we lose someone to suicide people say they never saw it coming Yeah think that actually is what I have seen in practice kids want to tell you I'm gonna say adults also right but for sure Kids but they're friends No And so we saw the video clip safe to say I I know i've had a number of kids and schools who have used that actually just so young high schooler earlier this week they were talking their friend and that friend Luckily report it to the school counselor who then told the parents who then got him connected to us to me So yeah they definitely want us to know they definitely want to tell us And when we ask They will tell dana Back to you on this Abby mentioned that her journey really started with an eating disorder and that then spiraled into other things can you explain the connection there and how an eating disorder can sort of be a gateway to other mental health issues whether it's an eating disorder this sort disorder or anxiety depression when we think about how we view our bodies and especially and as I mentioned that 10 years adolescent years when they're changing and girls are developing and boys are developing and changing at different rates and all these hormones are flooding and you're seeing images that don't align with who you think you should be and it changes who you are and you start to mourn that and we often think about as you mentioned earlier trauma being this external thing but trauma can also be the absence of so I don't know who I am I'm feeling very upset by the perceptions that are coming at me i'm missing out on things are happening in my life i'm experiencing a loss of who I am as an individual that can also be traumatic And so it leads us down this journey where we're constantly struggling with ourself and that can increase our anxiety and depression as well as creating really a catastrophe of internal chemicals that just flood our bodies and and worst experiencing that a biological mechanism as well that leads us down towards more and anxiety depression and then in some cases suicidal ideation two to that point One of the things that you said that really struck me and frankly broke my heart was when she said I felt like I wasn't enough and I think that that's so true of so many of its especially women and so I guess my question to you is you know what can we say to our young people and maybe are not so young people Yeah yeah yeah To help them kind of move through that who struggle with that feeling of never being enough Yeah I don't know that there's a single thing to say Tracy I think what it really is about is aligning ourselves with young people providing them with opportunities to be great Building them up with with activities and love and support creating systems of education that are lifting students up that are restorative when students make mistakes that is part of life is making mistakes and we are in such a unique position as educators to be able to really help students to learn from those mistakes instead of feeling as though they themselves out that they are a mistake when in fact every mistake is an opportunity to learn and grow and what better place for that Then in our schools and even more importantly in our homes Well thank you for that and we want to move on now to talk about a different aspect of youth mental health hillside forms and kids camp if you didn't know better You might think that the lands at hillside farm in shaver town is just that a farm but it's so much more than that I mean there chickens and goats and cows but hillside farms is also a place of healing for kids who have experienced trauma It's where suzanne capital found comfort as a child surrounded by addiction in decades later she has turned it into a safe space for other kids recovering from a trauma grief is not a thing It becomes part of who you want your life has changed after a traumatic events these children have seen it all We have incredible drug use We haven't readable drug abuse violence that's happening here luzerne county a little girl witnessed her mother be murdered these kids have to know that they didn't cause this and the kids have to know that they are are not responsible for fixing this I grew up in a house surrounded by addiction the farm It was my escape I wanted this farm which was my safe haven as a child to be a place that could help other children who were hurting states providi direct rm based svices were ey are emeing immeed in agrilture like do we wanto g inde and we' see i chickensor tod at we can takeh portity to teach an incredibl children who have experienced trauma wherean takeh out ther children who have experienced trauma wherean takeh and the value of kindness to anals and I got to thinking what we're doing here at hillside farms How did that affect the animals diit affect the animals How's that caer Is it good Yeah it's good it's good I ha this opportunity to go to penn vet to study animal behavioan animal welfare It was about understanding to undetanding the worlddy from the hands point of view or from the cavs int of view from thedonkeys poiw undetanding the worlddy eat And I think that just ties into the one welfare waof thinking and that is we are all interconnected we are n mental health professionalhere at his side farms but we do have therapist and individual therapy and group ery is thereor anything that makes you upset because you can put that in the inside If you want Kind of like a secret So any feelings that make you feel uncomfortableraw on my hair scribble them in here look minds looks pretty pricey fear yes Guys what is fair mean to you yeah with that and that brings me to my next overcome fear you feel not using my mother always owner I want that mountain to hear it You ready I will my fear there we go That's ati'm talkim when working with the animals or even walking the pastors being outside something clicks you see these children being children and then you start to remember the circumstances that they go through or that they've gone through or these kids are scot free Ok please remember this week that you had it hillside farms it does not end here You are welcome to come back to this farm as often as you like This is your farm This is your safe place and you're always welcome And remember that you all have value you matter and that you belong dana milbank of it I want to start with you on this what is it about nature and proximity to imals that has such a healing effect on humans going to go into the research and be that person for a second I'm gonna just be you know The reality is that when you think about it Animals don't judge you So you're in this connection where you have a place of your there your present You're in the moment you have to be in the moment you chickens running at you There's a catholic They don't wait five pounds like you have to be in that doing and being intentional and it teaches us to be able to center ourselves and really be in that moment and to be seen and valued for who we are in that moment without because I never have to worry about is that cal judging me is the pig judging me No you're not So you can be who you really are And that's a gift that to be seen And i'm really children to be there authentic self two unity not just the proximity but in this case the opportunity to care for animals and I wonder if there's a lesson there about channeling ah grief channeling our trauma into productive activity pause that positive activity and even something that helps others Yeah so it's certainly partly the positive activity of it because it's lots of different perspectives I think animals are different in that they are teaching to care for themselves in a way by caring for those animals and animals Most of us are pet owners and we know the care and love They give us back without even asking for it So it's that interaction so helpful and one It was great seeing that the farm I know a lot of schools are starting to bring in pat pat therapy animals and using them as an adjunct A lot of school counselors are and i'm hoping that more doing that because it's really just some other way of making students and kids feel comfortable and gives a chance to open up without even really knowing it in a different kind of way and to address men at one point we see the children making masks they're engaging in art therapy at another point we see them dancing and I wonder if you could talk about the power of creative pursuits and how that can have a healing affect on all of of us I think I think a lot of that goes back to again that search for connection So when a child when an adolescent can find something that they enjoy doing it gives them a healthy outlet and a connection to something so whether that is the Arts or sports in athletics or leadership opportunities when children are involved they are less likely to have those severe impacts of some of the trauma based things that have happened to them so I ups Absolutely art and creativity physical activity for some of our students really finding a niche finding their place within our schools within our homes with an hour society as a whole When children find their place when they feel connected They are healthy and along those lines Do you think about the kids who have been able to go to a place like hillside farms most kids don't have that opportunity Yet lots of kids are dealing with trauma so for those who do not have that opportunity what are some things that we as adults can do to help them feel safer to help them feel that sense of connection that he has been talking about one of the things that we can really do a gift that we can give our youth is really to see them for who they are not for who we want them to be But moment and hear what they're saying and connect with them and validate what they're feeling and experiencing whether we see it that way or not It isn't about us it's about the individual we're talking to whether it's an adult or a child and valuing they're experiencing and honoring the experience they had so that they are able able to do the connection that tia talked about it's not possible to create a connection with someone who is constantly saying that's not how I saw it Well this is what I saw shut down I don't want to talk to you I don't want to engage on a healing journey I want to just kind of go back into myself because i'm not seen in dr tim unity of the kids you go to the camp through there for a week and then they go home and maybe for some of them back to where the trauma was and so because their time there is so brief What are the kinds of skills that you would want those children to come away with from that week that hopefully will help carry them through once they get home so hopefully they they get the sense of that they do belong Did you make a connection with the other kids that are there at the farm the adults that are there The animals and remember what that feeling was like and have them be able to conjure that up on their own what that was like for them to feel that connection maybe for the first time in their life and that there are people out there who do care I keep hearing over and over my head student from the first video about I didn't feel like I belong anywhere and it just seems to be a thing that keeps popping up just that sense of I'm okay with who I am and who I who I want to be and others will recognize that as well Having that connection with adults or animals for that matter Dana you made the point about being present and being in the moment and you talked about how for the kids when you have to be present and you're focused on in their case the animals you You don't have the brain space to be dealing with some of your other issues and wonder if you could talk a little bit about the importance of being present and how we can kind of cultivate that in our children and in ourselves as well so that we are less inclined to maybe spiral or to voter devote our time to thinking about things that are taking us to a bad place so there's a lot of research out on yoga practices on mindfulness meditation horrible meditation I'm not very good at that But there are grounding exercises for those of us who are not good at meditation as well but it's really about sending yourself moments are really thinking about what is happening right here What am I hearing what am I seeing what am I feeling and really specific specifically identifying that so that I am bringing myself into the moment and tim talked about kind of taking yourself back to that place and that allows you to say i'm safe right here I remember this feeling of safety I've felt that before I know that I can feel it again I feel like i'm okay in this moment and i'm able to kind of call my nervous system down and my brains able to come back online and say wait i'm seeing what's happening It's a way to force are in her emotional brain to be quiet for a few minutes and allow our thinking brain to really come on board and say wait i'm ok In this moment This is how we're going to be able to move forward So you know definitely meditation if you're able to do that and they teach you that in schools there's dance moves martial Arts that we see lots of ways of doing that in school again Back to that movement and practices they've shown amazing data but things that you can do really quickly are grounding techniques for in that moment and then expand on that with meditation and kind of mindfulness when you mentioned remembering the experience and being able to take yourself back to that week I was thinking about journaling and I wonder what your thoughts are about that for children for adults for that matter in terms of that be a step toward healing and also a way to to kind of remember the good and sort of take yourself back to that place so journaling certainly can have that effect in terms of taking you back but I think more importantly it gives you a chance to put down some of those positive end or more yucky feelings on paper and get it kind of out of us it's sort of a regurgitation of feelings and emotions that might be stuck in our gut and we can see them and make it in there usually than private no one else has to see them but at least they're out of our head and out of our gut at the moment I find that to be very helpful myself because it does help you and just kind of get it all out of your head so much more to talk about as we are considering youth and mental health and we want to move now to the story of brandon big heart who was diagnosed with adhd as a child His doctor prescribes psychiatric medicine but it didn't help In fact over time Things got got worse he experienced anxiety depression and suicidal ideation family school counselors and therapists did all they could to help but it took a crisis for brandon to decide on a different approach to healing and for him It rambunctus and hyper child chalked it up to just a masve rollercoaster ju uo up and dn and theny middlechool years I stted to getore prsured with tts kind of dife and cameack and safill out auesi d m senth ade year tt evyone got treally hi a time hi d Deprsion he had ved to mitary scho we've t some oth opportunies to hel hilike letti him haven exa gyclass energy andt worked But in the meante had put him on so many different medications thate waalmostike a zombie when he was at home and then hyperactive d gettin was at schooI s into troe I coul't keep cused I cldn't coentrate could get ass is done We're get tt done I had actually threatene suicide by bus here Twenty sixteen iI remember correctly threaten to stay I was a step outrom a school bus one rning he had seen counselors he had been on medicatis yeah herwe were with yoknow a 12 ar year old who is standing at the school bus stop in the morning thinking I just want to step in front of the bus s falling apart ithool just crashing down and nothing was there to help me out I really started to distrust the medical system especily after there's all often incident where the dose was doubled and then brendan started having suicidal thoughts after that I researched every medication that was prescribed to friend and to knothe side effects too To be honest say no we're not doing that one Toward the end of middle school or high scol I would self my room eight nine 10 hours a day total just doingbsolutely nothing So he went from being the kid That was a troublemaker and ving some issues socially there to being now the shy quiet d and you knowt I think it really made him alone and it was probably arndhe time where I started getting up five six seven pills a day I was like isn't going to help 's just just add more and more and or and it's making me running chemicals basically four or five different doctors one psychiatrist and everyone just like pushed the and finally brendan said i've had enough That's why I told my mom was like I won't try and cut mpletely off and see what happens I went for three months with that and I absolutely he was feeling depressed again and at one point he said that he woke up in his bedroom and when he alized what was going on he had a knife next to him and I don't remember any part in between And it kind of shocked me like I got that close I mean you know blacked out for a little bit longer I mean i've been here so he ran back downstairs put it back and then I just broke out in tears in my room just crying screaming for help Just like basically screaming for help when he was referred to psychiatry before they didn't have any pediatric psychiatrist that were taking new patients because they were so busy so we tried again and this time because of covered They had more psychiatrist because they could do more of virtual visits so we were able to get in You've got to find person can trust I started noticing some pretty good changes were i've been happier had been enjoying myself and playing baseball ash here so i've got some things that keep my mind away from stuff like that with the help of the schools and with the help of the new psychiatrist Like I trust them Now you got to give yourselfime to think and react how you feel like you should you should deal with something like talked to a friend or you wouldn't talk to your parents I mean i'm pretty sure it'll be hard for them to I give them the details of how you feel I'm lucky enough that brendan went to his counselor and said i'm feeling depressed because he could have stepped in front of the school bus that morning I just had a sister born two years prior to that And then at the time of the my little brother william was like six months old I want to be here for them I don't want them to know me for six seven years and we're did run and go it's helped me grow up and we think brandon for showing sharing his story with us Dr lee let me begin with you because brendan story raises questions about psychiatric meds and kids and I think that that's something that a lot of parents are concerned about I know that you do not prescribed medications and your work However you told me in our podcast Not long ago that you do work with parents to helthem gather information so that they can make decisions about medication So what do parents need to know when they find themselves in that situation and they're considering medication for their child psychiatric meds What do they need to know what are the questions there should be asking Yeah so that's the key actually to ask questions I know that we often just rely on physicians to tell us This is the medication but they should go with a list of questions I often help parents develop that list There's no question that's two syllables solely to ask And then if they disagree I always suggested always go find a second opinion and ask someone else and not hesitate to do so just because you know someone that's in an authority position or an expert They have to do what they think is best for their child and sometimes they might disagree with the recommendation and then ask questions about that and then make a decision that is best for them And while on brendan did not have good exrience expience wi medicatiothe fact en lifesavg for a t of youngeople I woer if you uld talk little bit aut the updes of medation anwhat ican to the end she heu another ychiatristo get so s came ba aroundnd say o Some of imight be o But let's don a diffent fashn and that an medicaons for lo rks allyell as anadjunct tother eatment ofn I knowwe sometimesun s obably nothe case pieces tt might behelpful L the the othetreatmente meditionight help with becomes adjunive s sohe other treatment being talk therapy for instan yes yes yes And Dr daniel lack of it for parents of ds they've ask all thequestions ant are not coortable What are some alternative strategies th ty might be able to use to help their kids work through especially sething like adhd Well I thk I wanna goactoattend said whetr medicati It's a whole how do we this together So the school is an important relationships d you heard the family tal about the relationships with the school really we think about how we support atchl Our they don't have medication there are kids and so we want tobe able tt they need in achl setting by creating those partnerships by really focusing on family relationships and partnerships with our schools and our families so that we can meet the needs ofhe kids in the educational setting that scheduling changes in incles cn things tt we do in the environment but also educating oufamilies and our childr about what they're going through the symptoms are experiencing and other ternatives and ways that they can receive additional supports and to you directly in the story is very close to ur heart brandon's mom tolds that at some point went to his counselor And we found out tonight That was you but you said that you know he he went to see his counselor and said that he was feeling depressed S said that had he not done at he veryight very well might have carried out their pl to step in front of the school bus as a counselor yourself How do you help us student like brendan who comes to you and says i'm feeling depressed or admits to having some sort of mental health struggle where dyou begin to help us student like that I I would My position as a school council would be very different if a student came to me and said i'm depressed so children are not many adults and oftentimo express what igoing on So in In the case of a large percentage of the students that I work with It's a it's a puzzle we're putting together pieces we're seeing as dana talked about now we're seeing behaviors which are the result of behavioral health issues or concern So when student comes to me or when a teacher refer as a student or in the case of some of my students when a parent calls me in a panic and says you're not warning One of the things that I find myself often doing is reminding families that this is a journey that there is not a quick fix You're not going to see instant change but we're going to kind of and I kind of jokingly said at one point on with many students were grasping at straws until something work so I think being creative when it comes to working with children and youth is is very important in order to find something that sticks in brendan's case he talked about baseball He talked talked about the love of his siblings and really kind of finding that connection for him Finding finding something that finding something that sticks but it's a journey it's not an instant fix it's not an overnight it's not a single doctor's visit It's not a single time with me as the school counselor It's also not a single person It it is the community and it is the home and we need to be in it together Yeah As the saying goes it takes a village without a doubt and a lot of additions yeah well as grim as the statistics are about youth and mental health We've also seen that there are many paths to hewing and one of those paths is digital like so many other needs when it comes to mental health There is an app for at In fact there are lots of apps and one of them is launching in Pennsylvania and students in the wyoming area school district are among the first in the country to try it out my area in our district We're kind of a little bit of a desert of mental health services One of the main services at first hospital down the road there in kingston shut down recently A lot of the counselors that are in our district the mental health services at our district don't necessarily always take the access card they need private insurance We have a b each team here in the district but it's usually at its maximum so there was a great need for some you know initial universal services for mental health So I first learned about couth over the summer of 20 22 representative coffer brought the The app to us And when I started to get more information about what couth could provide I became very very excited about the access to mental health services that it could provide for our students here at wyoming area grades six through 12th are registered with couth we did so assemblies and had the students come in complete the registration process online with the couth program I would say about 600 students that are registered with couth in wyoming area curreny that's good because you get to communicate with people your age rather than with adults and you know professionals because that could be a scary especially if you've never gone to a therapist before So I think couth especially allows kids also younger kids to really have those conversations that they might not have even thought of having otherwise just because of that fear that anxiety they get to share their opinions and you know not be afraid about it at night Usually when I sit down with my thoughts actually come sometimes becomes overwhelming and that's usually when I would turn to that because you know my parents are sleeper my therapist is asleep and couple weeks ago it was like two in the morning and I was I was on the app and was like you know just needed someone to talk to and someone was right there and it was like you know just break like brought me right back down to the ground level and I was able to eventually go to sleep and I felt better is amazing So I think it's generally recognized we're in the middle of that of a kind of mental crisis at the moment and that's being compounded by the fact that there is a therapy supply demand imbalance There is an element of their children young people just really having that empowerment to go and manage their own mental health and it's it's it's something we we do tried facilitators as much as we can in a matter of principle about 95 percent of students get the support they want and need without having to go for costly or long term counseling for me I just kind of scroll through my home page and I just look at what other people are talking about and share my thoughts with them kind of just have conversations with people who actually really want to listen rather than like my friends you might be busy and don't want to hear about a special interest of mine or something along those lines ability to access This was the main reason that I think it's such a benefit As I said we did have those several students that during the registration process they got flagged for some follow up care with our guidance staff So I think it's important that you know this system kind of worked there There were students who you know there was some indicators of some concerns They made from the people from couth made contact with our guidance staff and then we were able to have those follow with the student in the family to make sure that they had the support that they need I'm very excited that couth seems to be making some inroads here in the united states they've had some expansion out on the west coast and i'm looking forward to hearing about a lot of positive news here in Pennsylvania and hoping that going forward You know there will be a conscientious ever at the state level to provide the service for free to all students and all districts here in the state of Pennsylvania It helps that you're always talking to real people like a lot of the mental health services online that they provide are all robots or am I not real people but these people You can tell Like they care and are actually there to help you I think introducing it to the school is definitely one of the best options that could have happened just just because kids now have an extra outlet even though some kids are in there appear guidance or or not And they just you know it's it's all anonymous and it's it's a great great outlet for just anyone do you drink as the superintendent pointed out one of the reasons that school districts are embracing embracing apps like this one is that there's such a gap between supply and demand as it relates to mental health professionals and I was reading recently that the ratio of students to guidance counselors in Pennsylvania is three hundred fifty three two one Does that sound right to you Yes I have no doubt that that is accurate Well we look for a ratio of of one to two fifty is what we're really hoping for that's what we're really shooting for I am very fortunate in my district We are we are very supported as professional school counselors but I understand that that's not the case in every district there is absolutely a demand for professionals who want to do this type of work in the schools and we really look for that one to two fifty is what we see as professionals school counselors that's what we see as much more manageable keeping in mind that we are simply the first line of defense So when students have severe mental health You can view a school counselor almost in the way we view a tree osh nurse in the e r we are essentially saying is this something that we can fix in a session or two or three or is this something that requires much more care Is it something that we can splint and we'll see you again again in a week Back here in the e r Back here in the school counseling office or is this something more chronic that we need to be referring out to community agencies really the role of the school counselor So that is why one to two fifty is much more manageable I am not the only person who is meant to serve children in the capacity and given the ratio of the three fifty three One is accurate and do you see therapies like this like these digital apps as a way to help keep some kids who would be in crisis from falling through the cracks Yeah I think what we need to keep in mind is that our students are talking about health whether we as adults are involved or not So thanks to social media Thanks to snapchat thanks to tick tock these conversations are happening we need to meet our students where they are at We need to We need to be a piece of that social media in a positive way And if that means that it's an app a mental health app our students I often help students to access the nine eight eight because it can be a text chat line so that is a prime example of meeting students where they're at sitting down with me across the table as the school counselor work or across an office as a school counselor can be very intimidating for our youth as much as I try to create a loving caring calm environment texting back and forth with that same students is is something It looks very different for our students because that is how they are most comfortable is connected to that device yeah it's their native language it actually is And we have to meet them where they're at So in this case apps and behavioral health apps and tell a health Are things that we are seeing as as helpful pieces for students do not have kind of a two part question here in one was whether you see downsides to this type of digital therapy and using an app as opposed to dealing with a human being but we also have a question from our studio audience which is how do we protect our children children while still expanding their knowledge with the good that the internet offers us so we've kind of got like a two parter here you know you've got this sort of good and bad about of social media that to you Was just talking about and i'm just curious as to whether you see any downsides to using an app for mental health Well I think that was hacksaw we would have a magic wand and it will be amazing And no one would have any concerns and then unfortunately it's not the reality with anything that we do there's always ups and and so when we think about students We know that some are going to connect over an app some are going to connect over telehealth some are not some really need that in-person connection so it's about what the student needs and how they how they are able to connect so there can be downsize there can be upsides one telehealth first started everyone was like this is going to be horrible it is not going to work at all no one's going to connect and that's not reality We're seeing that that's not true and we're pushing across the state and across the nation because of that And because of as we've heard earlier access to professionals that are just not available especially in many of our rural so there's an upside and downside to everything but they think it's just really making sure that we're monitoring it that we're thinking about this isn't a forum that isn't monitored So if we have a specific app were using in the school whether it's cousin or it's another app We're not allowing students to have mental health conversations were in adult isn't monitoring it to make sure that we're seeing what's happening and that we can address it in the moment or have a plan for how to address it What our policies look like and really having all of that infrastructure in place is really important when we think about the apps when I think about how we keep our students safe social media is such it's such a part of their lives and so I think that as adults sometimes we want to pretend it doesn't exist We want to pretend that what we see is that in if we say you're not allowed to expire ziebell it's just not going to happen and that's not realities so having those conversations understanding what they're using understanding what happens when I put something out on instagram versus I put something out on snapchat when can I see that And when does that go away is important for us as adults to understand and it's also important to teach that digital citizenship to our students to understand that when you put things out there They don't go away And how do you have those comments How do you engage in social behaviors just as you would in person and not have more significant social behaviors online Well there is so much more that we could talk about it We are just about out of time I want to thank all of our panelists to your direction of course Dr twombley unity Dr dana milbank of it Thank you all for being part of tonight's program and for your ongoing work with youth in the area of mental health For more information check out our web site wdia dot org slash mind over matter there's information there about the podcast too And remember you are not alone on behalf of wdia i'm tracy martin savidge thanks for watching